Curse

gwden · Jun 09, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

This game is being ruined by everquest nerds who are interested only in the grind and not what the game was originally made for-- PVP!

Witt78 · Jun 09, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

Read every quote that has been provided by the "troll". especially read the part about chess. read it again. how long has everquest been out? compare that to chess.

Make sure you also read the post by the "Troll" that states that comparing Everquest with Guild Wars causes people in Africa to starve to death...

Don't wanna miss that.

-Witt78

Zeru · Jun 09, 2005, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Actually the people who are complaining about grind are the people who are winning the HoH. The people who are saying grind is nothing or doesn't exist or should exist are thinking that GW is supposed to be just another wow, eq2, or l2, without a monthly fee. Sorry but you're wrong, and to make it worse, you're arguing with the alpha and beta players who have seen this game in it's true form, how it was meant to be (again, based on the interviews and pr statements).

This new trend of updates is just unveiling the curtain of what GW was supposed to be like originally and the people who for some reason though it was just 'another mmonrpg' following suit of all previous are disappointed. But unlike the group before who were basing their wants on how the game used to be and how the devs originally intended the game to be, the vocal complainers now are just basing their wants on how previous mmonrpgs were and how they want they game to be. It's not hard to see which has more validity in this case and apparently the devs have seen that too, which is good.

Both times, the people clamoring for change were a minority. The former time, the minority was of those who either played in the betas/alphas and knew the game at it's best or had already reached the point where the grind was massive and were well ahead of the rest of the majority. Now the minority is of those people who enjoy spending hundreds of hours trying to get elusive items to be better than someone else who didn't spend those hundreds of hours. Saying that only one was a minority is plain silly.

Witt78 · Jun 09, 2005, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwden

This game is being ruined by everquest nerds who are interested only in the grind and not what the game was originally made for-- PVP!

I can't help but notice that every forum thread that Gwden has opened on this forum has been locked within 6-12 hours of creation.

-Witt78

Saerden · Jun 09, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witt78

Make sure you also read the post by the "Troll" that states that comparing Everquest with Guild Wars causes people in Africa to starve to death...

Don't wanna miss that.

-Witt78

He is a mere mortal. a messenger of truth.
at least, the fact alone that this forum is filled with complaints from those who want farming, grind and pvp advantages to stay is a good sign that this game is at least moving in the right direction. There is nothing wrong with grind, nor with everquest. But GW was supposed to be different. You dont build your "character" in chess.

Tuna · Jun 09, 2005, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witt78

I can't help but notice that every forum thread that Gwden has opened on this forum has been locked within 6-12 hours of creation.

-Witt78

I can garuntee with 90% accuracy that threads are locked because people make posts that don't contribute to the discussion.

Yamat · Jun 09, 2005, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwden

... and not what the game was originally made for-- PVP!

Says who? There was me thinking it was designed for both... oh, but that was marketing hype, and we all know those marketing types lie to get you to buy their stuff... but, hold on, wait up... did I just see a PvP Arena at Ascalon? And, what, Yak's bend? Wow, they're springing up everywhere... HoH... Tombs...

[Directed at everyone] This game is for both PvE and PvP, which means neither one will be perfect. Live with it, or go elsewhere... you're supposed to be having fun, not yelling and screaming.

Epinephrine · Jun 09, 2005, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Witt78

"Being Top 20 in HOH of Gulid Wars" is something that you MUST work for because of the 100 thousand Guild wars players, THERE ARE ONLY 20 OF THEM!

With your mantality, Every American that walks the Earth deserves to spend one week of his life in the White House.
-Witt78

You make no sense overall, but the point is that some seem to be content winning more than they lose. This is the kind of person who is happy in the 51st percentile.

I wouldn't sit down to play chess with someone who said "I've been playing for ages, so I get to start with 4 more pawns and an extra rook." I don't care how long you've played, if you want to pit your skill against mine it's on equal terms. That's the point of competition.

If the competition is not on equal footing, it isn't a test of skill. It may be skill-influenced, but it isn't really testing skill. If you beat an olympic swimmer in a race because you got to use flippers it isn't really a victory, and the same holds here.

For those of you who like PvE and play MMOs, that's fine, you should enjoy PvE. For those who play PvP and want fair competition, about skill, as was advertised for years, we deserve equal footing. Not just those who don't have the gear, but those on top too - they deserve the chance to say that their wins WERE fair, that they had better teamwork and coordination, and not have their victories sullied by the fact that they have skills and items the other team lacks.

Tuna · Jun 09, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yamat

Says who? There was me thinking it was designed for both... oh, but that was marketing hype, and we all know those marketing types lie to get you to buy their stuff... but, hold on, wait up... did I just see a PvP Arena at Ascalon? And, what, Yak's bend? Wow, they're springing up everywhere... HoH... Tombs...

[Directed at everyone] This game is for both PvE and PvP, which means neither one will be perfect. Live with it, or go elsewhere... you're supposed to be having fun, not yelling and screaming.

Its obvious that the enitre skill system and game mechanics are designed first around PvP balance and then for PvE. However, what Arena Net considers this game to be is still a mystery

Saerden · Jun 09, 2005, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Not just those who don't have the gear, but those on top too - they deserve the chance to say that their wins WERE fair, that they had better teamwork and coordination, and not have their victories sullied by the fact that they have skills and items the other team lacks.

That should be said more often. I tried to sneak it in a couple of times ...

PvP players dont really care about winning. They only care about winning against the best.
Every victorious player right now is cheated out of this feeling of accomplishment that it were his skills that ensured victory, and not the 500h he spent in riverside, because he knew about it before it got nerfed.

BE|Dac · Jun 09, 2005, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

You make no sense overall, but the point is that some seem to be content winning more than they lose. This is the kind of person who is happy in the 51st percentile.

I wouldn't sit down to play chess with someone who said "I've been playing for ages, so I get to start with 4 more pawns and an extra rook." I don't care how long you've played, if you want to pit your skill against mine it's on equal terms. That's the point of competition.

If the competition is not on equal footing, it isn't a test of skill. It may be skill-influenced, but it isn't really testing skill. If you beat an olympic swimmer in a race because you got to use flippers it isn't really a victory, and the same holds here.

For those of you who like PvE and play MMOs, that's fine, you should enjoy PvE. For those who play PvP and want fair competition, about skill, as was advertised for years, we deserve equal footing. Not just those who don't have the gear, but those on top too - they deserve the chance to say that their wins WERE fair, that they had better teamwork and coordination, and not have their victories sullied by the fact that they have skills and items the other team lacks.

.. ..

JoDiamonds · Jun 09, 2005, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by -z|o-

People who never been in top 20 or held HoH consequently shouldnt be talking about what competative PvP is.

Anyone who plays PvP or desires to should have equal input into what PvP should be like. You pay your money, you get a fun game. That's the deal each consumer makes with ArenaNet. Being better at the game doesn't mean you deserve better service or get to have more fun.

Players who do better are certainly more qualified to talk about some aspects of PvP, such as advanced power balance discussions. (i.e. If a skill appears to be overpowered, it is true that the players who do better are more likely to be knowledgable about that.)

Witt78 · Jun 09, 2005, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

He is a mere mortal. a messenger of truth.
at least, the fact alone that this forum is filled with complaints from those who want farming, grind and pvp advantages to stay is a good sign that this game is at least moving in the right direction. There is nothing wrong with grind, nor with everquest. But GW was supposed to be different. You dont build your "character" in chess.

Okay. I see where you are comming from.... But you make it sound as if the grind in Guild Wars is closer to Everquest than it is to Chess.

That is not the case by any means.

And no, I'm sorry... But this game was NOT designed first and formost for PVP. It was designed as a blend. It was designed as much for PVP as it was for PVE. If this is the case, there simply must be some middle ground.

I think that Guild Wars is pretty well thought out in most area's. Further more, I think it's perfectly okay if you think "This could be improved" or "That can be modified"

However, I DONT think our differences of opinion should spark the conversation that has taken place in this forum thread. It's a shame that we all can't have a rational conversation like the one Saerden and I are having right now.

-Witt78

There is a difference between and argument and a fight.

c h a v e z · Jun 09, 2005, 08:42 PM // 20:42

haha when they said there was a heavy concentration of stupid on guru they really meant it.

still cant match the people on

www.steampowered.com

Shoddy · Jun 09, 2005, 08:42 PM // 20:42

I play PvE and PvP and I can't imagine why any of the PvE players should care a whit whether PvP chars have everything unlocked or not.

Akshara · Jun 09, 2005, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

I've yet to be on a n00b team that does not attempt to use brainpower to win, and actually win. I'm sorry but it does require skill, not time spent nor size of my guild.

I'd have to respectfully suggest that anyone who really believes this either hasn't played in PvE PuGs very much, focuses solely on PvP, or just hasn't gotten very far yet. In my experience, 9 out of 10 of the PUGs I've played in use absolutely zero brainpower or strategy whatsoever. They burn through like a bat out of hell, spam the same spells over and over, split off into 2 or 3 different groups without communicating to each other, curse and yell at other players and draw boobies or some other inane artwork on the compass repeatedly.

I have played in a few groups that used strategy and skill to get through the missions or quests... I'd say 3 out of probably 30 or more.

Red Locust · Jun 09, 2005, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Man, quit complaining. You can get to lvl 20 by winning one battle, you can buy all your runes for cheap, you can buy all your skills from trainers, you can capture your elite skills easily with the new SoC, you get max dmg 20/20 items for free, you get the best armor for free. Seriously, stop complaining about every single goddamn thing.

Lament Messon · Jun 09, 2005, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

He is a mere mortal. a messenger of truth.
at least, the fact alone that this forum is filled with complaints from those who want farming, grind and pvp advantages to stay is a good sign that this game is at least moving in the right direction. There is nothing wrong with grind, nor with everquest. But GW was supposed to be different. You dont build your "character" in chess.

You seem to like that chess idea. A quick compare and contrast. In GW you spend time in game learning general tactics and skills. In chess you spend time playing and watching learning general tactics and skills. In GW if you want special advantages in PvP games you need to devote more time than the next person to attain all the runes and upgrades available (at this time that is a LARGE amount of time). In chess you learn new moves and countermoves by spending VAST amounts of time reading, and playing alone. IMHO GW is more like chess than most games on the market, but then again chess is used to compare just about everything related to strategy isn't it.

Now that I have addressed the chess corrolation am I now permitted to make my own comparisons?

Lament

Epinephrine · Jun 09, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lament Messon

In GW if you want special advantages in PvP games you need to devote more time than the next person to attain all the runes and upgrades available (at this time that is a LARGE amount of time). In chess you learn new moves and countermoves by spending VAST amounts of time reading, and playing alone.

That the issue. Anyone can gain items by doing repetitive crap, it gets them an edge without skill. In any other competitive environment the exercise its to learn. In chess you invest time, in learning. That's why it is skill based. GW is skill based too - you have to go into the HoH and tombs many times in order to learn the skills involved in actually playing - but the aquisition of items is NOT skill based, and represents an advantage that is only derived through time spent.

I had no issue being bad at other games due to lack of practice. I practiced. That's learning. I do have an issue with starting at a disadvantage not because of lack of practice, but because of gear.

I also play the flip side - my team has in FPS moved to another server in order to provide a fair ping to bothteams - I won't insist that my opponents play at a disadvantage, so we moved from our NY server to our Dallas server to try to make ping even. I don't want my victories based on gear, and I don't want my losses based on gear.

sama · Jun 09, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16

I just like to say that I'm a pve'er and a pvp'er. Um, I would also like to say that I only pve because I have too.

So ok, to those that think there is no grind: Do you realize it's entirely possible that you could grind away for 1 year in this game and NOT get the one rune you really need for one class? Why you ask? Because you can't decide what rune you'll be unlocking. It took me 6 weeks of grinding to get my last minor rune, earth magic. I've farmed about 75 superiors, yet 11 superiors still remain locked. Don't know what the math is, but there's only about 30 or so lines in the game. It'll be a miracle before I get my last 11 superiors unlocked. 7 of them I could really use on a daily basis.